Calling all espresso pullers, Marshal Etheo profile inquiry


#1

Hello all, today I went into a coffee shop and brought with me 50g of some Burundi in hopes that I can see what it was like as an espresso. I understand with 50g there is not enough beans to really dial in a shot. On aeropress and V60 (at home) both were tasting juicy, berry and some chocolate which has been the norm. I’ve been drinking this coffee and slight variations in the profile for the past 5 days after 3days rest. When the barista pulled both shots it tasted underdeveloped green and peanut. After he ground the coffee we both smelled the grinds and it was the normal (like what I got at home) berry creamy but when it was pulled, it was no good. Is the Marshal Etheo profile for espresso underdeveloped? Or was the shot just not dialed in?

All this has left me very confused and inputs would be much appreciated. If any info needed is missing please let me know I do not have espresso equipment.
Thanks


#2

Well if it tasted green it was underdeveloped … the line that separates light roasted an underdeveloped is very fine line, sometimes I feel its just a hair above that, a hint of yellowgreen in the back. But if it tasted green or cardboard, its quite for sure …
Pour over usually does not show this, so you can have way lighter (underdeveloped) for pour over and not taste it much.


#3

Thats also one reason why I lke to taste my roasts on espresso … it shows some things really clearly, underdevelopment is one of them :slight_smile:


#4

Yea this is all very perplexing to me because I dropped near 2nd or right as I heard 2nd. Maybe I’ll extend the time of the last segment and keep the temp the same(?).


#5

But the question is: when trying other brew methods (like I do aeropress and V60) using the Marshal Etheo profile (for Africans) and it tastes good as immersion but when you pull the espresso it’s green?

Have you noted the Marshal Etheo profile to be generally underdeveloped?


#6

Surely if it were underdeveloped then the cupping/immersion would show it?

I would have thought that the Marshall Etheo was a classic filter profile and wouldn’t expect it to work well as espresso. I only roast into 1C with it and don’t get grassy notes in filter. But it’s kind of running out of energy to get to 2nd (never tried though)?

I reckon the bean would need more dialling in than it got in this situation but even then might not be suited anyway. I don’t have espresso gear so I’m guessing. But from what I’ve read lighter type roasts are tricky on espresso without a very good grinder.


#7

Yes this is my thought as well, in a video by Matt Perger/Barista Hustle he said that a good roast is good on any device (paraphrasing). And I assume and have seen, though admittedly with only a small amount of data, that espresso just needs more time to rest before being used. And that is also the general consensus of roasters, I am just testing to confirm the consensus.
I have seen this profile have no problem getting into 2nd crack and I like how there is a slight gap between 1C and 2nd. I am dropping literally right as I hear 2nd and don’t get oily beans. Maybe with the rest of my greens I’ll try to get really dark, but I don’t want to burn the beans and dislike the roast/char/astringent.

When I left for the coffee shop, it was very early in the morning and my friend kept me out very late the night before. I also have been very lazy lately and not doing a great job of labeling and organizing my roasts and I think I am going to re-roast the set again to see if I just picked up the wrong container before I left, I did also combine two roasts because I didn’t have enough of one. And I think now that one of the roasts was part of the Rao60.40.20/Costa Rica roasts (because I’m missing one :confused: )

@Pavel even when I’m roasting light with this profile or coast to 1C the flavors are full developed (the roasted beans smell fruited) leading me to think I just grabbed the wrong beans. I know what you mean by espresso being a magnifier and when I’ve used my really cheap espresso machine (Krups) with great roasts I’ve gotten remarkable results (not amazing but still surprising for sure) and on roasts that have flaws they become really apparent.

Luckily I have about 500g left of this Burundi so running the roast set again is no problem and also gives more confirmation and data of how well this roaster is with consistency. Which I am starting to believe is extremely consistent (not just the machine but when talking about beans, but time will tell).


#8

Sure, I agree about a good roast being good with any method, it just does not mean good on one method should be good overall as I unerstand it - i think its the other way …finding a good universal roast being what is valued.
But. I am known to not care about what is filter roast or espresso roast, I always use filter roasts on espresso (bought ones labeled filter) and most of the time its great. Just sometimes the cardboardish yellow shows, which usually is not obvious on v60 but really hits me on espresso.
Its really strange though that it would taste green when roasted almost into 2ndC … so I think you might really just picked wrong sample.


#9

Yup, I’m just about to sort and roast and I’ll know the answer in a couple days, thanks for the replies.


#10

I think that is the essence of the filter versus omni roast debate. Some roasters offer separate roasts for filter and espresso and others do an omni roast suitable for both which probably makes things simpler for their logistics. You would expect these roasters to test them with both methods.

But if I bought a filter roast I wouldn’t expect it to work in espresso. It might but it might not.

Personally, if I’m only brewing filter then I want a roast that is optimised for filter and not compromised to make it work as an espresso. Vice versa, if you only drank espresso would you want the roast compromised to work as a filter?


#11

@deven.patel411 is this a washed Burundi? I’ve only used naturals with the Marshall Etheo profile. Have to say that some of my favourite beans since I got this roaster have been from Burundi.


#12

Not as much as you might think really. I would agree with you if I did not have experience with a very different aproach, as it really sounds logical to optimise for one and thus not being optimal for other. But i think its not allways (most of the time :wink: ) the case.
Having years of experience using filter labeled roasts for espresso, I would say that:
a) underdeveloped cardboard/yellow/green taste on espresso is actually a faulty roast being sold as light filter roast because you may not spot the issue there (but its underdeveloped anyway so you dont extract a full potential even as a pour over). I am pretty sure of this mostly because any Tim Wendelboe very light filter roast I tried for espresso did not have this issue :slight_smile:
b) the espresso optimized is I believe more poor equipment poor technique average drinker optimised. It usually simply made easier to extract on espresso with more body and sweet less extreme acidity … which may be good if thats what you seek for, but with some skill I get great tasting espresso from filter roasts (though with some lesser body and more acidity which is what I prefere). Adjusting grind, dose and extraction temperature can be used to accentuate body less acidity for better ballance if I want to do it (though of cause I may not get to a body of darker roast …)

So I believe great filter roasts are actually amazing espresso roasts if you know how to work with them and what to expect. Few times have I been told that some beans are absolutely not usable for espresso, and allways what it really ment was - you need to have bettee equipment and some knowledge to extract grear shot … :smiley:


#13

Sounds like you have worked a very good case to justify the cost of high end expensive espresso equipment!
I’ll just have to make do with never knowing whether my filter roasts are optimal.


#14

:)) high end? Sure, I love high end … expensive? You know I use Rossa Air right? And Cafflano Kompresso …
Its just about having lots of o width, lots of adjustability … and playing with it out of safe bounds too …
not so much about having a most expensive fancy espresso machine - not unless it gives me more controll than I allready have with Rossa.
:smiley:


#15

The only thing I know about espresso is that I don’t like it!

I have no idea about the nature of your equipment but it is good that you can get results you like without spending crazy amounts.

But if you are saying that espresso is necessary for the quality assurance of a filter roast, well we’ll have to agree to disagree.


#16

I never said anything like that Stephen. On the contrary what I said is that your filter roast may also be amazing espresso roast too :smiley: (though you may never find out since you dont like espresso) … and I also said that some problems in a roast may be more obvious in espresso.
I love espresso and I am not affraid to say it loud, but I also love my V60 almost as much too…


#17

Yea sry this is for DP Africans, I use a different profile for washed.

To weigh in a little on what is being said, my opinion is that all roasts, roasted well enough are omni roasts. Tim Wendelboe makes a great point the “light” seems to be a misnomers (especially since that last roasting video where he and the team were showing how they roast via Loring) fully developing the coffee he said in another video talking about roasting; “accentuating florals if the coffee is floral, fruity if the coffee is fruity, or nutty…”. I am in agreement with Pavel that “filter” roasts can be used on espresso, just like saying “espresso” roasts (I feel, is also a misnomer). Roasting should bring out the quality of the coffee and brew method brings out the quality of the roast. In tea it is funny, really new or bad processed tea can fall apart at low temps but really high quality tea and great processing tea can take a huge hit in both steeping time and temperature, it’s more resilient.
@stephen.pickering21, I have never gotten a truly delicious espresso from a professional barista, I have a couple times on my Krups (lol). I wouldn’t say Pavel has worked hard to justifying the equipment but that he has worked hard to get great results. Even with a LM and Versalab or whatever the key to espresso and pour overs is understanding how to maneuver all the variables and try and compensate for others Just like roasting on the Ikawa this has been the key to my thinking and why I’ve never believed when people say “you can’t get body on an air roaster”.

Here is my profile that I used as a base for my washed Africans.


https://share.ikawa.support/profile_home/?CAESELxMcQZFS0J3gVfJOFblIrMaCE1FTEZTMy40IgUIABD0AyIGCLgLEJkNIgYI1xIQjxAiBgj+HBCWESIGCPUoEOUSKgUIABDMASoGCPUoEMwBMAE6Bgj6LhDxAQ==

Sry my cooling fan is like way high, it is not meant to be like that so just move it down, I usually have it somewhere in the 80-83% for two minutes or so…again to my point above I still am testing things and fan/cooling fan is just another item on this long long list of variables.


#18

Ok so I’m pretty sure I also figured out what I brought to this coffee shop.
It was a major screw up, the First profile was stopped way short according to my notes and the Rao was being tested on a failed Costa Rica reroast the Marshal Etheo profile was berry but thin, and matches what I tasted.

@pavel I wish you could have seen this guys tamping my face was like:


#19

Hard to extrapolate from the looks if it was that great or that bad kind of a tamp :)))


#20

Well not to be too judgmental but the basket was like at a 45* angle to the counter…it wasn’t good.