How to Taste Coffee

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#221

Looks good actually … being on the opossite side of fine adjustment … and doing a 2bar shot … and this one without spraying so looking quite ok to me … thats good :slight_smile: So I would say just slowly back in smaller steps, the pressure should rise, it should be not too far to 8-9 bar shot from a 2 bar one (not know the size of the steps on fine adjuster there …but I think it should rise quite well going back) … I would not change the tamp yet … just to keep all the rest the same. But since its not squirting and spraying, it should be fine with some more force from how I see it.

One thing that I see as suspicious in your video is the shape of those sets of holes that are not covered by espresso … they look like nothing is coming out of the to me … and they form paralel lines … But I would not bother with it before it gets above 6 bar :smiley: I usually dont watch 2 bar shots like this so … may be completely normal. :smiley:


#222

This is a reproduction of the first C-1, F-EF (mid fine) shot this tasted weak but pleasant not too bitter - this one extracted at close to 4 bar

Next one is halfway between at C-1, F-G I think this is a little stronger than previous but it also seems a bit bitter - so a step in the right direction extracting at 3 bar (the coarser one was at 2) - next another step finer…


Next one is half a step finer at C-1, F-FG tastes very similar to previous - extracting at 3 bar (the previous was also at 3) - the extraction looks a little better, taste is about the same - next another half step finer at F-F…

Next one is half a step finer at C-1, F-F tastes very similar to previous - extracting at 3.25 bar (the previous was at 3) - the extraction looks a little better, taste is about the same - so perhaps the best spot is below the mid-point - next another half step finer than mid point at F-E…

Next one is half a step finer than mid at C-1, F-E - extracting at 2 bar (the mid point was at 4) - so the conclusion appears to be midpoint was the BEST at 4 bar…

OOOOPPPsss this was on the finer side middle not the coarser side —should have been F-G - but I will leave this here as a reference
Next one is halfway between at C-1, F-C this one was very similar to the more coarse shot at C-1 F-I (so it looks as if it still needs to go finer) this tasted quite bitter - this extracted at 2 bar so going below the mid point looks to be too fine…


#223

Wow … its great when I can see it :slight_smile:
But … I am somewhat puzzled now … if I understand it correctly the maximum pressure point was at 4 bar, droping in both directions quite slowly. Its WHAT I expected but not in the SCALE I expected - Hmm. I though there would be a point where it would get over 9 bar.

I really hope now that testing another light rosted coffee would show maxing at 4bar is a problem of the beans and not the grinder, because it just should be possible to choke it with 22g.

Today I just came home too late for a few shots - but tomorrow I will compare on the Gardelli coffee shots from Aergrind and Mahlgut … And I will let you know. … Because if its not a oddity of this beans, I would definitely send the grinder for repair and calibration … This behavior is just soo odd.

I just have to ask once more to be sure … do you tamp when the basket is in the metal “portafilter” right? No other reason that might be a source of the problems with the puck - no hits on the metal portafilter at all …right? (Just trying to make sure there is not some other reason for the behaviour, I know it sounds wrong and obvious but … just have to ask to rule it out ok? .) I am very much used to put the “portafilter” into the body with extreme care, because when I on few ocasions missed the threads and it slightly slipped down and hit the body (veeeryyyy little) the puck shifted down a bit, and after flooding and pressurizing it sorta worked but channeled and sprayed and all bad … from that little small bump of metal parts )


#224

I tamp with the basket in the brass “portafilter”.

I NEVER tap the portafilter - I was taught to do that about 30 years ago - and figured out in about 6 months that it was a bad idea. So basically have not tapped for about 30 years…

I always screw the portafilter in very carefully, as far as I can tell I do not bump against the threads (probably happens occasionally and ruins a shot - but not a regular thing). I will be more vigilant about this - it may be that it explains some bad shots :smile:


#225

Actually it drops slow going up…

But FAST going down (to finer), half a gradation going down drops from 4 bar to 2 bar…


#226

Final shot of the day guess how many grams of coffee…

Ground at the midpoint so C-1 F-EF - extracted at 4 bar


#227

I think you would know when it happens, its sort of micro slip and bump … I would say that this operation - inverting the portafilter and puting it into the body is probably the only thing I really dont like about Rossa … after thousands of shots … and knowing that it allways works perfectly when I am carefull touching those two parts very gently … I still feel under pressure when doing it. Though I did not slip it for years now.


#228

I have some, maybe a bit strange idea.
It seems to me that one explanation of the behavior may be that before the main lobe of the particles reaches fine enough size, the fine lobe grows into a problem. At the same time you tested that removing big portion of fines does not help enough, but maybe removing only a part of them may work. Not solvimg the problem as it is not reasonable to do every time … but might confirm if the problem is caused by too much fines.


#229

I think the issue could also too many boulders. When I sifted at the finest settings 25% of the coffee was > 600.

I might try some more sifting tomorrow.

Also the “last shot of the day” was 30g of coffee - and it extracted at 4 bar = exactly the same pressure as as 22g shot - not what I expected - never seen that before.

So perhaps if I try a 50g shot…


#230

Eeeeeerrr… what!!! This is totally strange - no idea how that could happen.

Regarding boulders … should not that be getting straight worse when going to coarser settings? Amount of boulders (or particles above any threshold) should only rise when going coarser I think.
But probably also very easy to test by removing just them.

What I am very uncomfortable with is the same pressure with 30g and 22g … Its just so,wrong. And at the same time it sounds like something that may explain all the odd behavior when understood … hmmm


#231

Have you tried using beans from a roaster who you are familiar with? Testing only the grinder now instead of roasted beans + a new grinder. I could be that the freshly roasted coffee you have has not had enough time to rest? I’m not sure since I don’t make a lot of espresso. But thinking about “roasting for your grinder” has been nagging me at the back of my mind…also with no offense because it is very obvious but your shots are always coming out like a starfish, is you basket clean? can you see through tall the holes if you put it up to a light?


#232

And as a final test the finest possible grind (and it still looks like a starfish). And this is the same grind that that went way too fast before - and now it looks like the best (though not good). Maybe the gushers were something I just did wrong…

To me it just feels like the grind is not fine enough…

This is the basket


#233

I have used the beans from Semiramis that I have been using for 7 years. The roast of the Semiramis beans is darker maybe city. These beans used to work perfectly with the Rosco grinder (I could get good shots even with old beans). But they do not work with the Sette.

Comparing the beans I roasted and the Semiramis beans. I get slightly worse results with fresh (7 day old?) Semiramis beans.


#234

yea I think it really is the grind, that starfish seems like channeling especially with the very premature blonde-ing going on and the dripping is probably caused because of the uneven pressure caused from high pressure + channeling. That’s my best guess. Maybe switch over to aeropress and 20g’s in 110-115ml of water at 197F/97C, I do a pretty fine grind, pretty much espresso grind. Where put in the grounds on the plunger side, dump in water real fast, cap it with the prewet filter and lid, plunge down to remove most of the air, swirl so all the grounds are in the water and not on the plunger. And press. I’ve been getting some real nice flavors but my puck always smells too good. Like I’m leaving a lot of flavor left in the coffee but I’m not sure what to do. Writing this I’m thinking of doing a lower temp maybe 95C with a longer time in the ‘swirl’. Any thoughts?

From what I’ve read and heard that is plenty fresh enough, you could even sit a couple days and I’d still call it fresh. 20 days is when I would call it towards the end and 30 i’d drink it but usually those were my fail roasts so probably not anyways.


#235

With the Rosco grinder I could still get decent shots from 30 day old Semiramis beans. Though I had to grind finer…

I just watched a video review of the Sette - and it looked like the finest grind on the video is a bit finer than what I am getting. But it is hard to tell…

I am going to buy another hand grinder for comparison. Probably the Aergrind (or perhaps Hiku - if it is available) - when I get back from holiday in a couple of weeks.

Then if I get decent shots with that then it shows that the grinder is not right and I will send it to the factory for repair (though I might try buying a replacement inner burr first as it is pretty inexpensive - cheaper than shipping costs to send the grinder away).


#236

I think the dripping was because the stand was wet - I forgot to dry it.

Also sometimes happens if I move the machine around too much when winding - I think the coffee just goes to the side when the machine tips - then it sticks to the plastic.

It did not happen in any of the other videos - so I think it is not significant.


#237

Trying to apply some very basic logic…

The darker roast (with longer roast time) I did on my machine worked better (but still underextracted - or at least lacking flavour). A darker roast should make the coffee more porous = allow more solids to extract from the same weight of coffee grounds. I was using the finest setting on the Sette with the darker roast.

It seems to me that using a darker “more soluble” roast allows me to extract more at the same grind setting. This is analogous to having a finer setting on the lighter roast (to increase extraction).

This leads me to the conclusion that the Sette is just not grinding fine enough. Though it is also possible that it could be because the grind distribution is not right. Certainly if I can adjust Sette to grind finer it will be interesting to see what happens…

I will try sifting out the boulders at the finest setting - and this time I will keep the fines - which would “simulate” a finer grind (though it does change the distribution).


#238

Hmmm … so finest possible setting at 7bar now.

This one looked like no spraying happening so the major problem making it go at 0 bar is now not happening, but still … not sure if some minor connected problem with the puck is not present even here.

Just look here


This one is a standard 9 bar shot - and after merging all of the basket is covered with the flow … it also feels different to me in “thickness”

This one is a good 6bar shot … and still all of the basket is covered, and it looks denser and thicker to me than what I see from your shot video…

So as Deven mentioned, maybe there is still channeling though not as serious one as when it goes gusher.

But you are right that it does not grind fine enough (it just isnt fine enough even if you managed to do 9 bar here, because in theory you should be able to do standard 14g 9bar shot and still have some room to adjust … so … this part if from my perspective a flaw on the grinder side …if its ment to be espresso grinder it needs to go finer anyway)

My plan is to do the comparison today, but we will have a visitor later afternoon so it might help or not … will let you know about aergrind :))


#239

Ah … maaaayybeeee …

looking again and again on my shots and your shot … and I see you have definitely less flow …
Also … (and I dont like it for a reason though it might be completely correct form standart perspective) … I see you have coffee coming out at your preinfusion period at 1bar? … I do a 0,5 -0,75 bar and do not want actually see any drips appearing yet …just wetting good portion of the puck without building a path down and out.

May you please give a try to this procedure?

Grind on the finest settings, but not into the basket - grind into some vessel, and stir and mix the grounds a lot before pouring into the basket. Then (this is my procedure, so I dont say its right I just try to remove a variable) gently make the coffee completely flat spreading it everywhere evenly with some straight object (not a finger, more like a blunt knife - moving excess cofffee to a different spot needing more without pushing down on it) you should have more than a level basket at 22g so I move it around filling holes for some time and then if I still have some excess i spread it over around the middle … as even as I can do.

Wind up to say 0,5bar …start ramp up to full pressure without any coffee getting out in preinfusion … and try to ramp up as fast as reasonably possible withough too much shaking with Rossa … and try to go for the pressure, do not stop before you get either way more flow or up to 8-9 bar. If the shots is 15s - does not matter much at the moment … just try to compress the dry portion of the puck with the wet one by building the pressure before any coffee comes out - from my experience it should be easier to do … once its dripping out there are some paths allready formed maybe and you need that fast punch of pressure to force the compression before channels form - they are pretty good at staying there … So raising the pressure when say top half of the puck is wet and bottom half is dry should give you some time for compressing it before the water gets out, and maybe helping to change how it flows …


#240

A point from the pro roaster/barista - all of the videos show uneven flow through the puck, so just confirmed that even though it does no spray the puck is still not ok … you should see an even flow in both volume and colours.