How to Taste Coffee

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#141

Yea pretty close, with the increase in energy either through heat or pressure, more aminos and sugars are being broken down into their acidic constituents. This is a simple and general answer. But like all chemistry these molecules transition back and forth from reactants to products and we hope to extract them and keep them relatively stable so we can enjoy them. And not also to say I know exactly what is going on but this is the general consensus from the things I’ve read.
Hot and cold beverages not only affect our perception but also the molecules abilities to express themselves. If you for a real world example, it’s like eating Indian food strait out of the fridge vs warming it up. Those volatile compounds have more energy to separate when warm and thus get noticed by our sensors and so the food tastes more spicy or I should say more “spiced”. As you mentioned warming up a cold brew, which could, maybe, probably contain more flavors considering low temp extractions are easier and do produce a “more” flavor and tend to not break down things like heat does…I sense an experiment brewing…lol. Also great Re;Co video, I love watching them. There is a new one out btw.

@jmuir biological sciences are complicated…a lot of these things are contradicting because people bodies are different and not sterile mice. In my personal experience it is best to avoid medical studies in general and not worry about health and what’s good vs bad and just enjoy life because that stress should only be taken on if you make medicine your life, just my 2cents and no worries


#142

Hi guys back to gushers and 2 bar extraction (on the finest grind setting) - so problem is not solved. Trying a slightly lighter roast but that should not make it fail. I am getting closer to the opinion that MY Sette just does not grind fine enough.

The gushers were on very fine settings with 20g of coffee. Eventually the best I got was a 2 bar extraction on the finest setting using 22g of coffee.

I really need another grinder to compare it to - perhaps a reasonably priced manual grinder (I have been waiting on the Niche Zero but will not be here for a few months).

Perhaps the Lido-e as it is not so expensive - but it seems to have problems holding grind settings (similar to my Rosco - which is currently unusable as it will not hold a setting). Also the Lido apparently requires some effort to use (not so much of an issue - I can always jury rig a longer handle :slight_smile: )

So any other suggestions for another reasonably priced espresso grinder…

Or perhaps I should just bite the bullet and order and EK43 with SSP burrs and align the burrs by sanding or shimming - that would give a decent baseline to compare. Or perhaps the new Kafatek Monolith MAX with 98mm SSP burrs (EK 43 killer) but I think that is not available for order yet… :wink:


#143

Depends on your definition of reasonably priced :slight_smile:
May you please as a first step do the measuring of your grind, just so that we see where the main bulge of particle sizes sits? I think it should be good grinder for espresso, so … strange to see this at fines setting.

I may be able to let go of Mahlgut MG1 … which is now my best grinder for espresso at the moment … but not sure exactly when I recieve another grinder and if it will be on par or better in grind quality … but have hiigh hopes for it.
I would say Anything of the EK43 size and price for home use is quite an overkill :slight_smile: but if you have enough space for it then sure. Also I have heard its pretty uneasy to tune grind for espresso on it …
How about a Versalab? or EG-1 / HG-1 though HG1 is also quite large.
I also have a Lido2 that I think was quite good for espresso, though not as good as Mahlgut. Did not have big problems with it changing the setting, just sometimes, it depends of hardness of the beans and how you work with tightening it … it pretty much worked - and you can use their friction ring they make to make it lock better too. But its just too big I would say …
So - if you want to have just something that would be cheap, work well, so you can wait for Niche grinder, buy Aergrind … its very small so you will have a great travel grinder, its capable of grinding for espresso (its capable of turkish grind actually), and its really cheap for how good it grinds. Also … very fine steppless adjustment … so … yeah … I love mine and wont let go :smiley:

By the way … Kafatek MOnolith … looks really cool :slight_smile: quite interesting design, not far from EG1 though more technical and rough I would say. But I like it.


#144

This is the latest one the MAX that has the 98mm SSP burrs
https://www.kafatek.com/index.php/monolith-flat-max/

And this is a (35 page) discussion on home barista the tasting notes are on page 17
https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/user-experience-kafatek-monolith-flat-max-t51416.html


#145

Sifting profile from the Kruve

I used the little silicon brush you see in the picture to help accelerate the sifting process as (IMHO) just tapping/shaking is not enough to get all the coffee particles to go through the holes (unless you take hours…)

20g sample of coffee

  1. > 600 micron. 2.7g = 13.5%
  2. 600 < 500. 5.0g = 25.0%
  3. 500 < 400. 3.3g = 11.5%
  4. 400 < 350. 1.0g = 5.0%
  5. 350 < 300. 3.8g = 19.0%
  6. < 300. 2.6g = 13.0%

Loss from sifting 1.6g = 8.0%

And here is a VERY approximate graph (not logarithmic) that show the peak is somewhere around 550 micron at the finest setting - which seems a bit coarse to me - compared to various other graphs I have seen

For example this Mahlkönig pic - which I am guessing was taken at grind settings suitable for espresso - not the the finest grind possible on each grinder - it seems only the Mazzer is “coarser” than the Sette


#146

My guess would be 1) you did not set the burrs (not just align then, but set them to zero aka touching) 2) you not tamping with enough force or uneven

At 2bars and your gushing makes me think there is channeling happening or the pressure gauge could be faulty


#147

The only option for “setting” the burrs is the two shims they supply. I am using both shims - normally only one should be required. There is no option for aligning the burrs…

Pressure gauge is fine (based on historical experience). For example yesterday it went to 8 or 9 with a darker roast. And also I can feel when the pressure is higher based on the effort required to turn the handle (though I cannot measure from feel :slight_smile: )

Looking very much to me that I have “dud” in the sense that it does not grind fine enough…

I can probably get or make more shims - but more shims probably introduces the possibility of worse burr alignment.

And the gusher was 20g at 0 ZERO bars. The 2 bar shot was when I upped it to 22g of coffee.

And it is probably not a distribution or tamping problem - I am pretty particular about distribution/tamping. And what I do has seemed to work fine for about 30 years (though there is always room for improvement).


#148

Well … interesting results. And yes you are right it takes a very long time … so you acceleration method may be really nice idea :slight_smile:

If I add together 300-350 and 350-400 to make one band at 100 micron span … I see one potential problem there and that is really extreme fine “lobe” of the bimodal distribution … it seems really too much fines … and if you try to separate fines you should do so at 350 miccron not 200 (you see how little would you separate if 13% is <300 …) At the same time I would agree with Deven about calibrating the grinder … this should by no means be finest grind setting of a grinder at that price point and a reputation of a sort of decent espresso grinder.

My guess if I did not have an idea that the burrs are new would be that the burrs are quite dull and make crazy amount of fines. What makes me really think hard is … that this amount of fines should clog the puck and make a slow shot, not a gusher. Sooo … like Deven said I expect actually that maybe the fines make the puck fragile and prone to fracturing and breaking up when you flood it (when you turn Rossa around).

If you may try … though not sure how well it will work … but ,… Just separate the fraction above 350 (and maybe bellow 600) and make espresso from 22g (originally 2bar shot right?) with the same tamp force you used before. If it works better without fines it should be the fines and heavy tamp making some fractures … if it works even worse then it was not helpfull :slight_smile: but still I think its worth a try. As I said before I am not sure where exactly I had my 200 micron band positioned … so it may be just right, and it may be off enough to make it a very fast shot …yet I would expect it to be at least 4-5 bar shot.


#149

Yes I see what you say about the very fine lobe - basically the other grinders have at least double the width at the peak. Though it is probably impossible to be sure without a much more detailed analysis of the variations in size of the ground coffee.

The more I look at (think about it) - this grinder seems to be making a very odd distribution - seems like a very fine peak and then a lot more around the edges than you would hope…


#150

It may actually be so that what you do is right, but does not work with the particle distribution that sette creates and the flooding that is only done screenless in Rossa … usually the water meets the puck in a different way, but the turning over that we do with Rossa may further disrupt the allready fragile puck. This makes me ask one important question … do you tamp after you put the basket into the “portafilter”(You know what I mean … the brass part :smiley: ) ?

My experience so far is, that very fine grind and heavy tamp makes the puck very compact but also fragile … thats why I do tamp rather lightly … as light as I can to make a 9bar shot the way I do … because when I tamped hard I used to get lot more channeling and fractured pucks/gushers …


#151

:slight_smile:

This is what i suspect.

However I have tried many variations in lighter and harder tamping - and all the while making sure it is level - to no avail…

And the other thing is that this NEVER happened until I used the Sette…

Which is why it would be nice to compare another grinder…


#152

I will make an effort to try lighter tamps over the next day or so.

And also try the sifting as you suggest.


#153

Btw … just looking at how shims in Sette work … and it UGLYY … omg … how come they design something like this. Its not a cheap grinder - and even my Baratza Vario Home had some screw to calibrate the grinder … that allowed to change the setting quite a lot. Although - only when I sent it to germany to fix some problem and they also calibrated it there was it really grinding as fine as it should … so I would say maybe sending it to factory to check and fix would be wise (really I noticed large difference in how Vario performed completely new and after coming from service from factory)


#154

Sending it to the factory for a checkup/repair/calibration seems like the next step. But it’s a pain and leaves me without a grinder until it is returned.

Another option I thought of was to buy a spare (second) burr as it is pretty cheap - and see if that fixes it. I can order one for USD 26 from Baratza US. Though I can’t find where to order one in Europe :slight_smile:


#155

I guess because you might not use the fast change in pressure to tamp in Rossa if your tamp was too light, it would be the best to not to try to tamp light, but maybe just some medium tamp force … I guess you do preinfusion at some low pressure too … so maybe make it longer (I do usually 10s at 0,5-1bar … but sometimes 20 or even 30s) so that the puck soaks gently but well … and then try to ramp up the pressure fast. No crazy fast, not sure what it allows (my usuall ramp up is over maybe another 10s to full pressure …so quite fast would be 2-3s … and the punch I use when I need to tamp it more is opening it to jump up to full pressure in like 0,1s …)


#156

Its Mahlkoenig in europe :slight_smile: Baratza in US


#157

I have tried most of these variations already - pretty much :blush: The only thing I cannot do is the “punch” as you call it.

And the way you are describing the extraction is basically the same as how I do it (which makes sense).


#158

hmmm I still think with a lighter tamping with a lighter roast could be a main factor. Also @jmuir2009 are you using a light roasted coffee you purchased from a professional roaster or are you using your personal roasted coffee?


#159

It could be that with your light roasted coffee, or a preset profile, it could be that even for an “espresso” roast, that you are not getting enough porosity/coffee degredation that is not able to swell with water and thus more rock like just passing the water without creating resistance.


#160

True, though I was able to make a shot even from very underdeveloped roast, so I would expect it can be a faster shot, yet not a gusher at the finest grinder setting and with almost half of the weight in particles bellow 350 microns …which is a turkish grind territory :slight_smile: this is so strange behaviour…