I got green bean from Chiang Mai. How should I start?


#1

Any recommendations? How can I create a new roasting profile?


What have I done wrong?
#2

Hello - i have written down a procedure I use in another thread … not sure hiw to link but if you look its about how to find the best roast profile … should be able to find with ease :slight_smile:slight_smile:
What kind of a beans are those?


#3

Are you a beginner? Could you please give more information as to the details of the bean?


#4

I’m the real beginner with passion. I love the aroma of the coffee. I prefer coffee with milk & low acidity. I got green (arabica) bean from a cafe while traveling to the northern Thailand. I love roasted coffee bean from Doi Chang, Chiang Mai. I wish I could roast that coffee to that standard.


#5

Oh boy so you decided to get a coffee roaster lol, well good on you😋! Well I’d say start doing some research and reading online. I know there are a lot of US sites that help guide beginners learning about coffee roasting. Even though there is way more info for a drum roaster, (what you are using is a air roaster, also known as a fluid bed roaster. basic concepts and descriptors used can be carried over for this machine. YouTube has good information too. Go to a local coffee shop (with a roaster) and maybe talk to the roaster maybe try and work under them or ask if you can just watch them or work for free. I can only help you if you have the background info to understand what I suggest.


#6

Maybe he might start from that long profile with spike, was it yours @deven.patel411 ? That medium dark one … I think it would be a nice starting ground given the @n.asadathorn milk and low acidity preference?

Sure studying a lot from online sources is the best way to get some ground to build from … but it could also be explored by doing one variation at a time and observing what happens … I find many of the materials focused on drum roasters to not be as helpfull for me as I would think, because they usually have the knowledge of bean temperature, and exhaust temperature, whils we know only the incoming one. But I think we will get many valuable knowledge resources through Ikawa Blog if it will grow with steady speed …

My sort of biggest step I have yet to make, is getting enough experience to be able to sort of know what is happening to the beans. Because for now, I just think most of us have no idea how to extrapolate the incoming curve into what is happening to the beans - me included. For now, I just dont try to do that, I use my visual abilities to look on the curve, intuit if I would like to try this with the bean, and store the sort of incoming curve vs outcoming taste profile change in my head to help intuit better. But its a sort of barebow intuitive archery style shooting … I know I can hit my target, but not exactly sure what happened in the meantime :smile:


#7

I think understanding roast curves have to do with understanding the roast. Trying to match temp profiles and temp differential is the wrong way to attempt making a correlation. Looking at the speed(slope, in that phase, compared to the overall curve, time/temp of the entire profile) can tell you how fast that bean is traveling. Things like “speeding up before 1st crack” or “slow through development” “stretching out the drying phases” are all instrumental to understanding what that roaster is trying to accomplish in the profile. Looking at overal % spent in dry,yellow,millard,development and the speed they go through. I’ll post something later on the fan for more advanced users. Like I’ve said before, limit the variables, don’t worry about the fan, work the profile around the fan and once you can finally get good flavor, change the fan and see what happens. Rob Hoos wrote a great book on how to ‘sensory development’ of the roast, Scott Rao wrote several on his views of creating a profile. All fairly cheap ( <$50, if I remember correctly). The more information acquired the easier your roasting will be. The curve I created did not have the spike, spikes in a curve I believe are bad, I say this resting high on my lauerals as a scientist. I am sure you will get a drinkable profile but not the best profile


#8

Yep … totally agree. But what I tried to say is … that we know very little about what is happening to the beans (or better … we have only sensory information about the beans, but not hint about the actual temperature … of cause a skilled roaster should be able to judge from the stages how the bean temperature goes, yet for me its safer not to even pretend that I know anything about it … of cause I watch for the coulour changes and their times, odour changes and how they sort of flow through the roast … I just … at least for now … do not try to make a change that would for example change the temperature of the beans at this point to be X or move any one change Y seconds somewhere. Because I know very little about the exact numbers there, I think in … broad strokes I would call it … )

Regarding the spikes … I understand what you mean … its also counterintuitive to me, but with many african beans I sampled it produced very nice roast. Not sure if I could obtain the same without. For sure I would be more happy if I could make smooth curves and not spikes in the profile … but … thats not possible at the moment.


#9

btw @deven.patel411 … thank you for mentioning your scientific background. I have to say its very inspirational for me to read your views of the roast, exactly because you have a very different angle from which you look at it - or at least it apears to me so. I think, due to my profession, I am more artist than scientist, which leads to my big usage of intuition :slight_smile: I hope its not too frustrating for you when I use that word a lot … but at least for me your view forces me to think from a perspective that I just dont naturally use … which really help. So … once again Thank you.


#10

@pavel, hey, no worries. I am glad to help. Intuition is a great thing and it is how a lot of things get started in life, intuition and a lot of luck really. If you think about it the roast profile is one big spike. If you want to think of it in another way, we are like mother ducks and the beans are our eggs.


#11

Nice image … of the eggs and duck :slight_smile:
I think tried to say to Ikawa that I would love to have curves in the original discussion at KS, curves are just more natural to how I see the world (sharp angles are hard to produce - I can say that as an avid knife sharpener :D) … but it all smooths out inside the beans anyway … they have some thermal intertia so the spike like an impulse … my feeling about it is that it may help heat the center a bit sooner by sending the heat wave early, but does not impact so much the outside at it is lasts only a short time. Might be completely wrong on that one, but my most succesfull roast ever done (that special sample of Guji Natural that is still one of the best coffees i had this year) used the profile with spike too … but I use it only on those dense beans.


#12

@n.asadathorn - welcome! You’re off to a great start, and hopefully you’ll find something you love in the process. It doesn’t have to be complicated. Some people enjoy roasting so they can get exactly what they want.

Hopefully I can give a little guidance - are the roasts in Thailand darket? If so, try the IKAWA Espresso Roast 2 as a starting point.


#13

@pavel @deven.patel411 - Hey guys, thanks for all the interest in the Hot Air forum! It seems like you have both spent a lot of time learning. If you have profiles you’re willing to share with other users, I encourage it. It’s sometimes a helpful place for people to start from when they begin.

I know when I started roasting, and for months and months afterwards, it felt like I was driving down a dark road with no headlights. Example profiles that produced good results kept me interested and experimenting to learn more.

Also, I’m not entirely clear on what you mean when you say a spike in the roast - could you link to a profile with one? There is some evidence and reasoning to suggest that a spike may beneficial in an IKAWA At Home profile in the right place…


#14

Can not share any from here now, but I think this would make it clear - from my POV both of your espresso roasts that you share in Roasting for espresso start with a spike (Sharp rise of temperature with a sharp decline right from the maximum … I think we refer to the sharp tip it has when we call it spike :slight_smile: … )


#15

Regarding the sharing of profiles …all I use except one are either prolonged Ikawa profiles or ones from other users that were shared on KS chat … So, I dont feel confident to share those, because my understanding of what they do exactly is limited, since I did not create them … I usually said there is not much interesing in them when we talked with others about them … just longer versions I use for sampling the coffee sometimes with miniscule changes in fan speed or temperature at some point …
But sure … when I create something that I think will help and that can also do some explanation of why it is what is is , I will share with happiness :slight_smile:
My problem at the moment with my own way how I do the choices of what profiles to use, is that I can not communicate why I think this will be a good one … I just have the feeling it looks right, but untill I know more about those reasons this is of no value to anyone but me I am affraid. The only thing I have sort of tested on quite some number of roasts is, that if I leave my head out of the process, and dont even start reasoning about it, when I have this strong feeling of profile looking right for the bean it often works quite nicely. That one special roast I keep mentioning was hit exactly this way, and any other variation I tried to make it better made it worse … and I did like 8 or 10 after the first one before I gave up and went to back to the first.


#16

I have a couple of Thai coffees at the moment. Both from that area. Both good, neither cheap.


#17

I am happy to discuss profiles and such but to just hand off a profile and say this will get you somewhere is like giving a person a car who’s never driven before. Or a book to someone who doesn’t know how to read. There is a bit of information that needs to be understood beforehand, just like the espresso roast you’ve already listed. What good is any profile good to someone if they don’t know how to maneuver that profile for a specfic bean, or what’s going to make something more or less of what they want? I am happy to share the wealth of information on how to approach roasting a coffee. There is a difference between me sharing information and handing over the answer. The reason why I shared profiles before was because people engaged in discussions with some amount of a base of info. When I carried over some of the posts I’ve omitted sharing profiles yet. It’s not that I’m a sadistic, I spent the two years it took to produce this roaster listening and reading what other people have/had said. And I have tried to correlate and condense it down into proper steps that I think one should approach this roaster. I am more than happy to guide people but I am not willing to put the buggy before the horse.


#18

Hi @deven.patel411 , I hear you but will respectfully disagree that it’s putting the buggy before the horse. My girlfriend has successfully roasted delicious coffee on the IKAWA At Home having absolutely no knowledge of roasting. That’s part of the beauty of the product.

IKAWA believes good, freshly roasted coffee can be available to everyone and it’s up to them to determine how much they would like to know about the roasting process. If people want to learn more, and really geek out on the science of it, that’s great. But it’s important that we don’t intimidate with all the information at the beginning.

There is some base info on the IKAWA Blog; the roast recipes and the coffees are what will create the community.

Through my 10+ years of roasting coffee, I have taught it in many ways. To professionals, to home baristas and more. Before they know the aroma a coffee should have at a certain point in the roast, I need them to get excited about what roasting is. I welcome them in warmly and in small steps encourage them.

I encourage everyone to share roast recipes because, up until now, that hasn’t been possible and receiving a profile from a stranger that makes your morning brew that much more delicious is the warmest welcome I can think of.

I’m going to close this thread, it’s gone off topic.

Regarding a good profile for @n.asadathorn and his Thai beans; from the conversation to date, we’re looking for something with a low acidity (which would typically be more developed). Thai beans are also of a relatively lower altitude, which is most similar to IKAWA’s Brazilian coffee, so we’re also recommend you try our Sitio Bela Vista recipe and perhaps iterate from there.


#19