If by particular kind of taste you mean I like it and you don’t then yes it. What point are you trying to make.
It’s dark and probably quite complex.
The original Ikawa profiles are very much at the lighter end (I’ve not tried the recent espresso ones). I’d probably like it, but most of the preferences on the Kickstarter thread were also at the lighter end. At a guess, from just looking at the profile, Espresso 2 is medium, maybe dark medium but not Vienna.
Though the Sweet Marias definition of Vienna seems lighter than normal - Full City, Vienna, Full City +, French, Charcoal (description on their Basic Roasting resource) whereas I’d think it was more common for it to be FC, FC+, Vienna, French, Spanish.
Hmmm. I agree on that the IKAWA profiles are very light and with no malice underdeveloped. But both I and mineharu posted profiles that will get you well past second and mike posted one that made my beans bleed and required a roaster cleaning. Christop’s was about medium dark to dark if I remember correctly (apologies @Christo-Faulds if I’m wrong) . You read the SM roasting guide wrong. It’s FC+, Vienna, full French…
QThe quote from SM-
‘Second Crack: At this point a second crack can be heard, often more volatile than the first. The roast character starts to eclipse the origin character of the beans at this point and is also known as a Vienna roast. A few pops into second crack is a Full City + roast.’
@douglas9, agreed completely about the pricing. What profile are you using? You should get to FC with this https://share.ikawa.support/profile_home/?CAESEJTyFLxPIEBBnMrpzCzD6QoaEEEgNS4xMzEuNCAodi4gNSkiBQgAEPQDIgYIuQMQygsiBgiqEhCHDSIGCMIWEPAPIgYIvCsQgBQiBgiiMhCIFCoFCAAQ2QEqBgjVFxDbASoGCKIyELUBMAE6Bgj6NhC4AQ==
And wet beans with this
Yes, their description & image there has it right, but it isn’t what they wrote on the Basic Roasting guide (https://www.sweetmarias.com/instructions - current not legacy). I did mention both definitions in my post.
The point is simply that few of the available Ikawa profiles reach the usual definition of Vienna & douglas9 will probably have to go higher or longer if that is what he wants to achieve. Of course, he may prefer to roast it lighter than the SM recommendation.
@pavel As much as I love chocolate, I spent two days in a plantation in Peru (they were growing both coffee and the food of the gods) and have been refining my taste over the past few years in a similar fashion as with coffee (single origins, different roasting and conching times, etc…), I have so far only taken advantage of the great number of specialist chocolate manufacturers around the world…
I did think at some point to enter the production chain, but it feels even more demanding and less forgiving than coffee… Sourcing beans is more difficult, conching requires extremely expensive machinery (until some Ikawa engineer comes up with a pretty and reasonably priced home solution ) and tons of time and I never thought it would make sense to do it just as a hobby (both time and money-wise)…
So I decided to stick to coffee and pizza…
@peurostar Well … I did find a small wetmill, that can (not as perfectly as big conching machines) do both initial reduction of the size of particles and conching. And its not expensive at all … I think having that stone slab for tempering would be a simillar price.
I do not think about doing those things as being more effective, but more like - getting to know the process as a first bonus, knowing exactly what I did as another, and making small and fresh batches for direct consumption as the biggest one and of cause … having a lot o fun along the way.
I make our own pasta fresco (spaghetti are my most favourite :)), we bake our own bread (real bread) make yogurt, butter … lots of little things like that. Its fun, it brings insight, and tastes soo good … (especially bread and pasta fresco are immensely better than what one can buy)
Tried it now on one set of beans. I’d make it American by colour, not even Full City. 18% weight loss though.
May darken over time (seems to happen with a lot of Ikawa roasts); may be darker on different beans. Can’t see it being more than medium though.
“Real bread” lol that got me for some reason. Another home thing to try is making mozzarella from some raw milk. Also check out the chocolate alchemist he’s got some stuff I think you’ll find interesting. @peurostar hey dude I’d tell you to not give up, you can always make stuff at home and try and sell it to small restaurants or bakeries. You’d be suprised how quickly it will go and if not then you got gifts for the holidays…win/win imo
hmm… the meaning of bread varies a lot around the world. But in our country bread should be made of … sourdought I think is the name (bacterial and yeast culture grown with adding flour and water) … it used to be made at homes but its not so much nowadays. And a bread that is made and sold here by the companies is made using chemicals and sometimes adding a bit of yeast to it … which makes a completely different product :))) Hence me calling it real bread. If the names were to be used correctly there would be no other bread but this one, but … its not like that in reality
We tried both cheese from milk, and also I made tofu from soya at home … really cheap and simple. There is really so much that can be made at home, to a very high standard … just needs a bit of time
I’ve now tried to extend the profile to make it darker.
I attempted to preserve the spirit of the profile by maintaining the angle of every slope and also keeping the duration of the final fall. Effectively simply trying to extend the length of the line up to the peak. I’ve done it twice. The first possibly reached Full City and the darker of them Full City+. I’m pretty sure it’s not Vienna even then, although it might darken further, and clearly went through 2C. Weight loss remained the same (18%). Profiles below:
‘IKAWA Espresso Roast #2 dkr’ freshly roasted by @ikawacoffee, here’s the recipe #IKAWAHOME - https://share.ikawa.support/profile_home/?CAESEKZnYagrlkTGhHE6JsfeTdsaG0lLQVdBIEVzcHJlc3NvIFJvYXN0ICMyIGRrciIFCAAQ9AMiBgjQBBDCEyIGCKYHENUNIgYI5yAQjRMiBgjOLBDBFCIGCLEyEIYUKgUIABDYASoGCOILELkBKgYIsTIQpgEwAToGCLdAEM0B
‘IKAWA Espresso Roast #2 dkr+’ freshly roasted by @ikawacoffee, here’s the recipe #IKAWAHOME - https://share.ikawa.support/profile_home/?CAESEMFkWIGGWEotmmlzh7os+p8aHElLQVdBIEVzcHJlc3NvIFJvYXN0ICMyIGRrcisiBQgAEPQDIgYI0AQQwhMiBgimBxDVDSIGCOcgEI0TIgYI6S4Q2RQiBgjsNBCgFCoFCAAQ2AEqBgjiCxC5ASoGCOw0EKYBMAE6BgjyQhDNAQ==
I would note that doing this was not easy as the control system is effectively freehand. It would have been helpful to be able to select the penultimate leg of the profile and simply extend that in a straight line with everything else remaining the same.
What bean are you using?
Yes I would agree that on the face of it, it would be nice and I’ve also wished for it too. However I believe that it is impossible. If you change the slope of one segment it will change the start or finish of the segment one or both sides. And thus the graph being manipulated is more fluid than I originally thought hence why I say other parts of the roast effect other parts of the roast. If you find something different please share. Just on the face of it I would say try starting with a lower fan speed using a positive slope but charge ramp at that temp whispers defects too me.and I don’t go that high anymore.
It’s just a simple mechanistic extension of the profile to create a darker roast. Other methods could have been used (eg extending segment 3 rather than segment 4) that would also have been in the spirit of the profile. I think that adding a further extension , in the same manner, would probably reach Vienna (& the 12 minute limit). I have no idea of the quality of the profile, simply joining the profile recommendation to the SM recommendation for Vienna for that particular blend.
Recoding the software to add the tweaking ability I suggested would be relatively simple; many other programs already do it. The big issue is usability and Ikawa users. Would it make to software too complicated for many? I don’t know. But it would make tweaking easier.
Have now tried the 3 profiles (the original Ikawa Espresso 2 and the two darker extensions). Don’t find any of them good (though I didn’t try them as an espresso, and they might taste much better there). Might be the bean, but none of them brought out the sweetness and viscosity I’ve achieved with other profiles. The darker ones are just darker; not as much extra body as I would have expected (comparing with other profiles of similar darkness). Suggests that the bean I used needs different treatment in the earlier development phase.
Which other profiles have achieved that sweetness and viscosity for you if I may ask? How are you brewing?
Would you say that your dkr + profile achieved a Vienna roast? By my own personal definition, Vienna is when oils when fully coat the bean after about 24 hours, but not right away. By contrast, if it takes like 3 days for oils to fully coat the beans I’d probably consider that a full city +. I’ve tried to get some Vienna roasts myself, and while it’s hard to really mess up a Vienna roast, it never landed really well, so I’d like to get it better.
I’ve tried the ikawa espresso roast 2 on a few beans and I found it surprisingly versatile, producing decent results all around. The Rwandan was underdeveloped, the Ethiopian was a little lacking in origin flavor, but a Nicaraguan and a Guatemalan were very close to perfect. I am primarily brewing these as espresso, and when I’ve tried it as pour over, it was not quite as good. It achieved roasts from city+ to full city for me.
I would claim no ownership of the dkr+; a simple mechanistic extension.
But, no, it is nowhere near. The Espresso 2 has very occasional spots of oil now; the darker version is slightly darker but no more oil and the dkr+ has spots of oil on most beans.
Given that none of them worked well (though equally, none badly), I’d say the beans weren’t suited to the profile. They have actually done okay with a variety of profiles; I’ll have to look to see what the common factors are.
Agree generally about Vienna being generally good. And it is easy enough to achieve on the Ikawa (though the quality is less reliable & dependent on the roast). Personally, I’d be tempted to ramp higher earlier and tail off for longer after the peak.
Sorry about rushed reply; playing scrabble with the family.
Ikawa hosted an espresso roasting class in London a couple of months ago for which Geoff prepared some profiles. I find that this one works very well with a Brazil Fazenda Camocim I got from the Bella Barista Roastery.
The beans are medium dark and the flavour is a rich chocolate combined with hints of fruit and nuts.
How long was your rest before you pulled the espresso?
Since you found a profile where you are getting good flavor notes, would you be willing to test a couple batches with different cooling fan speeds? per se 80%, 73%, 65%